Old Goat

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Posts by Old Goat

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  8

  Message to everyone on this site

  by FFtruther144 in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  to active jws who visit this site, read the posts, and think about the subjects being discussed: i give my deepest respect and honor.

  i know how very difficult it is, especially if you are born and raised.

  the wts makes it a top priority, with no expense seemingly spared, to make it impossible for you to find out that there is someone behind the curtain.

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  Old Goat

  I like the Proclaimers book, but it is edited history, short on detail, and all the good stuff is not there, of course.

  Read James Penton and Schulz and de Vienne's books. Better detail. More honest history.

  One of my secondary objections to Watch Tower practice is that they treat their history selectively. The Watch Tower doesn't write history. They write myth because they believe God guides them into truth.

  In the introduction to A Separate Identity, Schulz writes:

  Russell’s admirers put him in a historically untenable position. Even when presenting reasonably accurate narrative, they tend to create or perpetuate a myth. For many of them, Russell was God’s special instrument to restore vital truths. This apotheosis disconnects Russell from the realm of critical history. It presents a false picture of Russell, his associates and opponents. Even if one believes Russell was favored by God, no person of faith should pursue myth-building at the expense of carefully researched, accurate history. If God’s hand directed the WatchTower movement in Russell’s day, would that not best be shown by a reasonably well-researched presentation of events that reconnects Russell to his environment? If Russell had a place in God’s work, mythologizing him hides it.

  Then, later he writes:

  WatchTower history as it has been written resembles Greek mythology. As with Greek mythology the stories are often told in conflicting ways. If you have ever read the myths of Pan’s parentage, you understand what I mean. In the Russell mythology there is Russell the saint and there is Russell the devilish, religious fraudster. We have limited ourselves to Russell the man. We deal with unfounded claims in each chapter. In the process, we probably offend everyone with a personal commitment to the myths. We have enjoyed bursting bubbles. Watch the footnotes carefully. We detail false claims in footnotes where we do not always do so in text. We’ve been even handed in this. You will find us faulting claims made by true believers and by opposition polemicists.

  Mythology replaces history when lack of curiosity is coupled with lack of thorough research. This is especially pronounced among Russell’s modern-day friends. A number of letters passed between us and institutions representing descendant religions. In a nearly uniform way, they focus on Russell, express lack of interest in anyone else, and simply do not look for detail. This distorts the history. Russell did not function in a vacuum. He was influenced by his friends, by his enemies, by what he read and experienced. These details are recoverable. The biographies of his early associates are available to a determined researcher. The “brothers” Lawver, Hipsher, Tavender, Myers, and a host of others who receive more or less mention in Zion’s Watch Tower were living people who had a physical and spiritual presence in Russell’s life and an effect on his beliefs. There are many others, some of considerable but forgotten prominence, who significantly contributed to Watch Tower history and to the development of a unified body of believers. But where is Aaron P. Riley or the small group in West Virginia who withdrew from the Church of Christ to form a congregation? Not in any history of the Watch Tower of which we are aware. Why is Calista Burk Downing a name without biography in histories of Zion’s Watch Tower?

  Probably there are several reasons why the WatchTower story hasn’t been told with any sort of depth. Lack of curiosity is a prime one. Exchanges with interested parties elicited comments such as, “Thank you for the photocopies. We’re only interested in Russell himself.” This approach is part of the Saint Russell myth. Time and circumstances have wounded this approach so that some who sustained it in the past are no longer able to do so. A recent change in Watch Tower Society theology diminishes Russell’s’ status as interpreted through a doctrinal lens. A new religious paradigm does not alter the historical significance of C. T. Russell and his many associates.

  If the watch Tower had taken this approach, letting all the warts and scars show, I'd have fewer issues with them. They openly say that they've altererd the publications on the watchtower.org site. Older examples are fairly well known to readers of this board. This is unethical.
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  47

  C.T. Russel IS burried UNDER the pyramid

  by FFtruther144 in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  russel is burried under the pyramid.

  according to none other than frederick franz himself, in his own words!.

  i read some wt trolls on here trying to say that he is under the marker a few feet away.. that is not true.

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  Old Goat

  The unspoken issue here is the assumption that Russell was a Mason. He wasn't. And that there is a vast Masonic conspiracy. Prove it. Seeing the Pyramid monument as Masonic, those who believe this see Russell's burial as the last act in a Masonic drama. There is no historical credibility here. If you want to see what the documents and evidence suggest, see Schulz and de Vienne, A Separate Identity. (lulu.com)

  It's interesting that Russell wrote:

  We note also that the order of Free Masons, if judged by its past history, has some secret object or scheme, more than fraternity and financial aid in time of sickness and death. And, so far as we can judge, there is a certain amount of worship or mummery connected with the rites of this order and some others which the members do not comprehend, but which, in many cases, serves to satisfy the cravings of the natural mind for worship, and thus hinders it from seeking the worship of god in spirit and truth – through Christ, the only appointed Mediator and Grand Master. In proportion as such societies consume valuable time in foolish, senseless rites and ceremonies, and in substitution the worship of their officers, and the use of words and symbols that have no meaning to them, for the Worship of God, in the appointed way – through Christ, and according to knowledge and the spirit of a sound mind 0 in that proportion these societies are grievous evils, regardless of the financial gains or losses connected with membership in them. -zwt June 1895.

  True Believers point to the Queens assembly hall, reposting the post card photo of it taken right after purchase. Originally called Bliss Theater, it was built at the end of the Egyptian Theater craze and had an Egyptian motiff. All that was removed by the witnesses. They didn't build the building and weren't responsible for the decoration on it when they purchased it. Our conspiracy theory brethren ignore that.

  They point to the cross and crown symbol. It traces to a number of poems and hymns. Francis Quarles wrote the poem Hadassa: The History of Queene Ester. It contains this couplet: The way to bliss lies not on beds of down, And he that has no cross deserves no crown. We'll always have the crazies with us. They were hurt by the Watch Tower too. But asserting Russell was a Mason and there is a vast Masonic conspiracy connected to the Watch Tower is crap history. It's mindless.
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  25

  What's the dirt on the GB? Proven not anecdotal.

  by punkofnice in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have no respect for the governing body of jehovah's witnesses(tm) as i consider them to be wicked men.. having said that, is there any proven dirt on them that could expose them for the critters they are?.

  i heard that jaracz was a sex offender but where's the evidence?.

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  Old Goat

  I said nothing about Rutherford's "homes." You know I didn't.
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  25

  What's the dirt on the GB? Proven not anecdotal.

  by punkofnice in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have no respect for the governing body of jehovah's witnesses(tm) as i consider them to be wicked men.. having said that, is there any proven dirt on them that could expose them for the critters they are?.

  i heard that jaracz was a sex offender but where's the evidence?.

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  Old Goat

  What's presented here is without documentation that would meet any standard of proof. It's glorified gossip. I used to teach (still lecture on occasion) history at a major west coast univerisity back in the day. I'd never accept what's been posted here from a student. I want to see solid documentation.

  I was baptised in 1948. I first walked into a Kingdom Hall in 1944. Rutherford had been dead for two years. Of those who met or knew him that I met, all admired him. Like Knorr, he was a man of two personalities, best I can tell. And maybe everything said about him and Bony Boyd is true, Nothing on this site proves it so.

  Show me solid documentation, not rumor.

  I'm fairly certain you didn't know Rutehrford. So you don't know any of this first hand. Show me bonny's confession, written in her own hand. Show me a lurid photo. Show my any proof at all that goes beyong a mere assertion. I want proof that takes a step beyong mere assertion.
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  25

  What's the dirt on the GB? Proven not anecdotal.

  by punkofnice in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have no respect for the governing body of jehovah's witnesses(tm) as i consider them to be wicked men.. having said that, is there any proven dirt on them that could expose them for the critters they are?.

  i heard that jaracz was a sex offender but where's the evidence?.

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  Old Goat

  They didn't "join the united nations." Only countries can do that. they registered as an NGO with the United Nations.

  I'm very interested in Rutherford. I'm unconvinced by most of what I've read. But by the pricking of my skin, I think there's something there. I'd like to see something more convincing than what's been posted on this site.

  I don't know any of the current GB memebers. All those I knew have died. Of those I knew, I thought F. W. Franz was a fruitcake. I liked John Barr. Macmillan was a hoot, smart, funny. The others seemed one dimensional, but up close and personal seemed to be true believers.
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  26

  JW Literature... Lots of it... what to burn and what to keep?

  by ILoveTTATT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have lots and lots of watchtower literature... and i don't know what could be useful in the future to have as a reference or as a keeper.

  i am definitely keeping the 1993 and 1994 bound volumes of the awake!

  (no, we are not false prophets... down in the same page, the generation of 1914 will not pass... also the youths who put god the watchtower first).

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  Old Goat

  I've kept everything. I have a huge collection of watchtower material, including some of the rarest of the rare. I share it with a few researchers. But mostly it sits on bookshelves. I think I'll leave it to a college library, along with the rest of my library.

  Now that I've confessed to being OCD and a packrat, if you don't want the stuff, put it in a box and dump it on a kingdom hall porch. Throw it in a dumpster. Donate it to the goodwill store.
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  47

  C.T. Russel IS burried UNDER the pyramid

  by FFtruther144 in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  russel is burried under the pyramid.

  according to none other than frederick franz himself, in his own words!.

  i read some wt trolls on here trying to say that he is under the marker a few feet away.. that is not true.

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  Old Goat

  From Schulz and de Vienne, A Separate Identity. (Buy it at lulu.com)

  From Appendix One:

  A pyramid shaped monument was installed in the Bible Student cemetery in Pittsburgh. The cemetery is occasionally described as Masonic. It’s not. There is a Masonic temple nearby built years later. There is no connection. The pyramid was intended as a general monument with the names of those buried in the WatchTower plots engraved onto open books. Rather than being a Masonic symbol, the open book motif derives from the book of Revelation. Those who want to cast Russell as part of some great Masonic conspiracy claim the pyramid embodies the “all seeing eye.” It does not. The pyramid symbol refers to Russell’s belief, shared by many others who did not otherwise hold his views, that the Great Pyramid at Gizah was a divinely inspired testimony in stone to Bible truth. We trace the development of this idea in Chapter Three. The use of the pyramid as a monument was suggested not by the back of the US dollar which had an entirely different design in 1920, but by the grave marker for Charles Piazzi Smyth, a prominent pyramidologist and Astronomer Royal of Scotland.

  The monument was installed in 1919, some years after Russell’s death. One source suggests Russell designed it, a Bible Student convention report saying: “The Pyramid, as you will note, has an open book carved on each side, intended by Brother Russell for the names of Bethel workers as they ceased their work and were laid at rest, awaiting the great Resurrection of the first-fruits of the Lord.”[1] A Bible Student web page takes pains to blame the pyramid monument on Rutherford rather than Russell. Neither of these statements is correct. The monument was designed not as a memorial to Russell but “as a memorial to the society.” It was “designed by Brother Bohnet, and accepted by Brother Russell as the most fitting emblem for an enduring monument on the Society’s burial space.” According to Bohnet, work started in 1914. The pyramid’s purpose was not Masonic.[2]

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  [1] Souvenir Notes from the Reunion Convention of Christian Bible Students: Pittsburgh, Pa., November 1-2-3, 1929.

  [2] Souvenir Notes from the Bible Student’s Convention: Pittsburgh, Pa., January 2-5, 1919, page 7.

  From Chapter Four, A Separate Identity:

  The Witness of the Great Pyramid

  They were introduced to speculations about the Great Pyramid of Giza at least by 1875.[1] How soon they adopted the view that the pyramid was God’s “great stone witness on the border of Egypt” is unknown, but it must have been in this era. As with so much else, claims made about Russell’s belief that the Great Pyramid was a secondary witness to the divine message are often wholly or partly false. One writer suggests that Storrs introduced Pyramidology to “the Millerites,” and that belief centered in Adventist bodies. Those who lack persistence and skill as researchers, the lazy and polemicists may have an interest in limiting belief to “fringe” groups, but this distorts the record. Pyramidology was discussed in America at least by 1861.[2] Believers were a diverse group that ran the spectrum from Astrologers to Thomas De Witt Talmage, a popular Presbyterian and Reformed pastor, who had “no doubt” that Isaiah’s reference to a stone witnesses on the border of Egypt meant the Great Pyramid.[3]

  Charles Piazzi Smyth, Astronomer Royal for Scotland, popularized and elaborated the theories of John Taylor, who without visiting the pyramid suggested that it was constructed by Noah. Smyth traveled to Egypt, examining and measuring the pyramid. He penned Our Inheritance in the Great Pyramid which was published in 1864. It attributed the Great Pyramid to Melchizedek and gave it a scientific and religious import. Smyth’s theories gained a following among Egyptologists, not the least of whom was William Matthew Flinders Petrie. But when Flinders Petrie traveled to Egypt in 1880, making his own measurements he found so many flaws in Smyth’s theory that he abandoned it, calling it “lamentable nonsense.” By the end of the 19th Century no reputable Egyptologist supported it.

  James K. Walker, president of the Watchman Fellowship, suggested that Pyramidology was “a major source of revelation” for Russell, writing that Russell admitted to this. As is true of most of what Mr. Walker writes, this is absurd. At least one writer claims that Pyramidology attracted Adventists primarily, and many claim that pyramid belief was rank superstition, occultism, or connected to the Masons. All of this is wrong, some of it out of context and some contrived. Certainly, Walker’s claim that Russell was dependent on pyramid measurement for his chronology is false. Ron Rhodes described Russell’s belief that the pyramid fulfilled Isaiah’s prophecy as “cornerstone component” of his belief system. This is also false.

  In 1881, Russell wrote that he had “great respect” for the teaching of the Great Pyramid, adding, “We do not build our faith upon it. It has well been called ‘A Miracle in Stone,’ and it commends itself to us as a work of God, and not planned by men, for it seems in every respect to be in perfect accord with God’s plan as we are finding it written in His Word; and this it is, that causes our respect for it.”[4] It is no more true that Russell found in the pyramid a cornerstone of his theology than it is of Clarence Larkin, the Baptist expositor, who also saw the pyramid as God’s stone witness on the border of Egypt.

  Russell was introduced to Pyramidology through his One Faith and Millennialist connections. Storrs, writers for Age-to-Come journals, and others promoted Smyth’s ideas and added thoughts of their own. Thomas Wilson’s Our Rest focused on the dual themes of Christ’s return and the Great Pyramid. Russell could not have avoided the discussion. The quotation above shows us that he read J. A. Seiss’ Miracle in Stone when it was published in 1877. Seiss published on the theme in 1869, but while Russell may have read that tract we cannot prove he did. The nature of the Great Pyramid was the subject of lectures, pamphlets, books and public discussion. If it later became the pet theory of fringe religion and occultists, it was not that in this era. We honor Isaac Newton for his science. We forget that when everyone else believed Phlogiston was a scientific reality, he did too. If he were alive today, we’d raise our eyebrows and scoff. Context is everything here. Put in context, Russell’s adoption of Smyth’s theory made him a man of his times. He believed it when others did.

  Seiss, whose works are still published, is honored as a serious and scholarly exegete. Others of repute in the religious world found the theory attractive. A long list of favorable reviews of his Miracle in Stone appeared in the religious and secular press. The Illustrated Christian Weekly expressed some reservations but recommended it. The Reformed Church Messenger approached it in the same way. So did The Christian Intelligencer. Messiah’s Herald wrote, “We’re glad that it is being studied by men of learning and piety; and those who have a taste for study in that direction, will find many things in this volume to help them.” We do not know how Russell was introduced to Seiss’ book. He probably heard of it from various sources. The Pittsburgh Dispatch reviewed it, saying: “The lectures of Dr. Seiss are as remarkable for the polished beauty of their construction, as for the information which they contain. That mysterious pillar, the Great Pyramid of Gizeh, its relation to ancient history, modern discoveries, and Bible connections, are thoroughly canvassed in this volume.” If we are to fault Russell at all, it is for believing the theory long after its defects were apparent.

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  [1] The Great Pyramid, Bible Examiner, 1875, page 233 ff.

  [2] 1861 New York Tribune Almanac, page 3.

  [3] T. De Witt Talmage: Lesson of the Pyramid, The Peekskill, New York, Highland Democrat, October 24, 1891.

  [4] C. T. Russell: The Year 1881, Zion’s WatchTower, May 1881, page 5.

  http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/
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  47

  C.T. Russel IS burried UNDER the pyramid

  by FFtruther144 in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  russel is burried under the pyramid.

  according to none other than frederick franz himself, in his own words!.

  i read some wt trolls on here trying to say that he is under the marker a few feet away.. that is not true.

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  Old Goat

  NO matter what Franz said, he's not burried under the pyramid. There are photos of his funeral. He's burried where his head stone suggests.
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  3

  Kingdom Hall singing ....

  by Old Goat in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hasn't been like this for decades .... .

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rztqje3zadc.

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  Old Goat

  Hasn't been like this for decades ...

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZTqje3Zadc
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  61

  CO is chasing me . Meeting him tomorrow.

  by Ancientofdays in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  this week is the "special week", co is back.. he phone called me this morning asking to meet together.. i replied "i don't refuse people who want talking to me, but my condition is that you must be alone, and we meet in public space.".

  he agreed and we will meet tomorrow in a cafe.. .

  this week he already met with my wife in the kh, and he told her "i believe your housband is apostate !!

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  Old Goat

  Why meet with him at all? You're not obligated to. Do you really have something to discuss with him? I'd politely decline. You realize this is a Witch Hunt, right? Why step into that trap?

  "On second thought, I don't see a meeting with you as essential to my well being. If I feel the need of a shepherding visit, I'll call you. Thanks."